Current review of TAFE system.
 

Currently the federal govt is reviewing industrial relations etc. including the tertiary training sector. There have been numerous reviews, white papers etc. produced over the past five decades with the apparent aim of improving TAFE. (this name originating in the early 70s and replacing a hodge podge of state technical education systems in name only)
We have seen the Kelty review (a significant review with a wide ranging terms of reference) and subsequently the introduction of national syllabi, national modules and national units of competence for trade and traineeship training qualifications.
I am posting thread this hoping to engender some responses and opinions from personal experience. Now retired, I spent almost 90% of my time in employment involved in trade and related higher level qualifications education and training both in industry and colleges.
To put it bluntly I am of the opinion that in Australia the apprenticeship system has well and truly reached it's use by date. Many of our formally identified trade qualifications are barely utilized in many workplaces. They survive because of entrenched influence of self interest groups. These represent employer groups as well as private training organisations some unions and state licencing bodies. There are examples of all of these being in cahoots.
I will stop there for the time being.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

I've got no interest in the political side but there is definitely something going wrong with the Tafe system.

I've been going to my facility for the past 25 years, what used to be a small Horticulture/ Agriculture campus had duly expanded to include health services, beauty therapy hairdressing to name a few. Theres a number of new buildings but someone forgot the carpark! Theres no chance of getting a park after 7:30am, not that you can try as the employed security guard will evict you after half a lap of the carpark. I resorted to parking at a trainstation and either catching a bus or hiking in.

Then theres the technology, all well and good when it works or if they don't decide to change to another system. We had no end of trouble with lost enrolments and results on a change of system.
Don't get me started on the whole student portal farce...

The prior learning system also needs changing too. I don't want something for free but thought I'd be exempt from a couple of units, I'll use machinery operation as an example.
Apparently my previous trade certificate was no longer admissible. I supplied contactable industry references, still no good. Gave them current truck license and excavator, JCB, forklift, chainsaw tickets to name a few. Still no good so I paid to sit in a class for 20hrs to learn how to check oil and fuel small plant items, lol!

Once there I started talking to a lecturer, a well respected industry figure. He announced that he would be retiring from the system after our class had gone through. He'd been strangled by administration and health and safety. Forget the old days of driving students for a site visit on the Tafe bus he struggled to even get us into the back paddock for a practical demonstration.

I have a few trade or equivalent qualifications that I'm very proud of but the quality of training has definitely dropped and I don't think I'll be going back.
-End rant-

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

TAFE , like the university system has been monetized.
That is the problem...when a govt subsidises a scheme it blows up.
John13...look at how much they charge you out at....


/rant mode on

I wanted to do a "C"language programming short course at Gordon TAFE in Geelong a few years ago.
They took my $150 deposit and called back 6 mths later offering me a completely different course because they didn't get 10 people for the 10 evening course.

The original course was $600...so ten people is $6000 !!! FMD...not a bad gig/scam

WTF? Give me money back I said...the fine print said a $75 non-refundable admin fee....

Hello youtube tutorials...never looked at TAFE again.

//rant mode off

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

System is an absolute joke - went through it from 2010-2014 doing an apprenticeship plus another couple of certificates concurrently at night school to skill up.

Spent multiples of 5 figures on the extra certs and got a couple of fancy pieces of paper for my efforts that have been useless in the real world because its one thing to have the papers its another to have the experience and you need the last one before you get the first one to move into the game.

It sort of just taught crap you could learn from the web and Youtube, I can write a mean large report, not sure if it was worth the circa $20K it cost :lol

The automotive side was a lot of book work on **** that stopped appearing on cars before I was born, the most modern engines we had in the place was a Buick V6 and a Holden 304 both from a VN Commodore and an RB30 from a VL.

Holden donated us a new VE Commodore at one point but we didn't have any course work for it so it just sat about collecting dust with a Bosch scan tool mounted in it.

From my experience I'm anti TAFE these days - WOFTAM unless its someone elses money then I'll happily sit in class getting paid to do their inane bull**** by some rabid lefty feminist who hates men and wants to teach us about Marxism instead of Human Resources course that I paid for.

I've done it all wrong, I should have just put 'social commentator' on my CV and started giving lectures at Melbourne University for ****en eleventy bazillion dollars to Chinese students for PR scams.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

In metal trades at least, tafe isnt totally useless.
Its a means for apprentices to not be limited by time pressures and not be snapped at for asking questions. In saying that, my boiley apprentice has come forward in leaps and bounds in some areas since changing to a smaller provider, however is lacking in some of my strong points i got from my time ( eg- geometric development).
End of the day, its necessary. Anyone who blames the training provider (tafe etc) for having a crap apprentice needs to look at themselves and the apprentice first. I think tafes biggest failing is they dont really care how the kid turns out. Anyone can blast through certificates easy. But if you want to be good at it its up to the individual to apply themselves, noone else. And unfortunately, that is not common in young people now.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Slightly off topic, but I need some advice on TAFE please.

A young man I know is in his 3rd year. Since attending for a week in February this year, he has not stepped foot at TAFE all this time, because they have used COVID as the reason. The only study items they have provided for him to complete have been through email, and that was a couple of hours reading and/or answering questions from home every month. A couple of hours, compared to a weeks worth of class time every month!!??

He paid approx. $2'500 for this year. I don't feel as TAFE has provided him his monies worth honestly. That was a lot of $$ for a 20 year old kid, and he feels ripped off. And I agree.

Is there anything he can do as far as a refund or at least a partial refund? I genuinely feel it is warranted given the total lack of study time for the last 5 months. A total of 8-9 hours of study time is all they have provided. When it should've been about 200 hours upto this month.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Mine tried to rip me off by charging me full fee after I pulled out of the course early 2015, then they went through an ownership change and a merge, then they tried to deny I was ever enrolled in the class because they didn't have records that old, thank **** I email everyone when I ask questions and I could pull the emails, then they went silent on me of course.

I only figured this out 4 years later in 2019 when I saw I had a tax debt and was copping interest on it - VET FEE HELP crapola.

Ended up contacting the ombudsman they created after the government realised everyone was getting rolled on dodgy overnight RTO's springing up everywhere rorting kids for BS courses.

They sorted it out and suddenly the silence stopped and money came back.

https://www.studyassist.gov.au/suppo...ent-complaints

Start an email trail, then speak to the reception office in person and get them to start the ball rolling.

Then complain to higher authorities via email when nothing happens.

Don't ever deal with this **** via phone calls or try get things done solely in person because the textbook response is deny everything and hope you'll go away.

Back when I wasn't so jaded and cynical it was 32 modules as part of your apprenticeship, few hundred hours, absolutely he should complain.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

I am a current TAFE trainer (not trade) I teach OHS and I disagree with comment about trade qualifications, how else do you determine a level of competence particularly safe work practices if not a 'bit of paper'

Granted there are some 'bits of paper' that are not worth the paper they are written on, generally due to private training providers dumbing down the qualification - to get easy access to Gvmt money

Whilst there are pro's and cons to the TAFE system, it is a good process. ASQA (the Federal governing body of training providers) now rule that all trainers MUST be 'current', in other words the days of TAFE teachers sitting around delivering **** and never going back into industry to keep themselves current are gone. Training providers get audited by ASQA on this very thing

In some States TAFE's compete against each other for clients - there is some merit in this, but generally, particularly in rural areas this is just stupid

Some States (like S.A.) just has a State TAFE system, not individual stand alone TAFE's lile Victoria

And I finally I take exception to you assertion that TAFE's are soley responsible here, most State Governments have set up private training providers to compete with their own owned entity. The current Victorian State Government has shut down hundreds of shonky private training providers for criminal ctivy accessing Gvmt money - to lump TAFE's into that process in very unfair - most times TAFE's are purely the puppets of current Gvmt policy (both State and Federal)

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Government policy, not TAFE's fault - it s called 'cutting funding' A recent Liberal Victorian Government with their policies sent all regional TAFE's broke

not TAFE's fault - Government policy - a cut to funding. Users like you want cheap training, so you will not pay what the true costs are - you expect free or suubsidised training. So where do TAFE's get the money from to have newest, biggest, brightest equipment? You are outside the sytem but think you know all about it

not TAFE's fault, (State) Government policy - they have cut the **** out of funding to TAFE's over years and years. See, there is the problem, you are outside the sytem but think you know all about it because some time spent at a TAFE, well I have worked at one for nearly 18 years and have dealt with many RPL applications, and yes you do want it for free, everyone does. Who pays for our time to assess your application? in most cases it is a longer process to assess an RPL application than what it is to actually train and assess in a 'classroom'

Also, It is up to the applicant to PROVE beyond doubt that they have the skills and knowledge for RPL, you say you know, well prove it to me - and believe a letter from a previous boss (mate) is not going to cut it. This is not a TAFE issue, this is a process put on us by ASQA. You need to reference the Units of Competence on training.gov.au to see what sits behind a qualification and what 'evidence' training providers need to deem someone 'competent. Most would struggle to PROVE they have the skills and knowledge for the RPL process

not TAFE's fault - Federal & State Government policies of accountability

sounds like you spend too much time at TAFE studying, when do you find the time to work?

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Government policy old mate, not the TAFE's fault

he can ask for his enrolment to be deferred, there is a process around this, all he has to do is ask. They are being lenient towards these requests at the moment (Gvmt policy)

People need to understand TAFE's are responsive to Government policy of the day - they have to comply

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

if TAFE's gave money back to EVERY person who decides for what ever reason to not complete their training then most would have to shut their doors - would you give people their money back if they sent your car to you to be fixed and you got halfway through fixing it then they walked in the door said they didn't want you to complete it (all for personal reasons) then wanted ALL their money back - I bet you wouldn't give it to them. why should TAFE's????? we have a refund policy and we stick to it. At the moment with COVID-19 they are being very flexible, all because of (Victorian) government policy

I will acknowledge this is poor as generally we all run the same system

I believe Vet Fee Help has gone to god or is going to god

NOT TAFE's and unfair to lump all TAFE's in that, the Victorian State Government has shut down hundreds of dodgy private training providers

see my post above re deferral - all he has to do is ask

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

why is this TAFE's faults - because you wanted shiny bits of paper - they delivered and you are unhappy about it - maybe you should have researched the need for shiny bits of paper before you signed up??????

A lot of this is a National curriculum issue, not the TAFE's, they can only teach what is in the system - the trainers probably would agree with you. As for equipmwent and as I said previously, nearly everyone wants their training for free or at least subisidised - then you complain when equipment is old - where do you think the money comes from??????? Your (subidised or free) fees. How would your business operate under the same system?

I take extreme exception to that, you are out of line

but you are so outspoken on everything on FF's that i am surprised you have time to work

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

The TAFE systems are controlled by the States, all that the Feds can do is dictate curriculum, training and assessing standards (via ASQA) and how funding for trainees and apprentices is used - it is ok to get on TV and say this and say that but in reality (just like the COVD-19 scenario) the States have the control

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

That TAFE was handed HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from tax payers over the years and that's the best they could do? Shiny new $100M+ building but Buick V6, RB30 and Holden 304 and teachers who'd been out of the game but teaching students for 20+ years? Someone was benefitting from the tax payer funding and it sure as **** wasn't the students that's for sure, I can attest to it.

There's people here on this forum who are circa 30 years older than me who went through the same school worked on the same equipment and did the same modules.

That ridiculous rabid man hating feminist was precisely why I left my course rather than completing it, I'm not paying some man hating piece of **** to lecture me about Marxism rather than the course I paid thousands for.

The higher education system is a breeding ground for rabid lefties trying to indoctrinate kids, might as well as have Clementine Ford teaching classes - time for some accountability and a purge of the detritus.

The standard for training at TAFE is ridiculously low from my experience going from 2010-2015 in my time through the system in Melbourne, that's why you all whinge about losing government funding all the time because you couldn't stand on your own two feet as a business because no one would pay for the courses when they realise the **** sandwich covered in glitter they've been served.

The only parts of the business which stand up financially are the full fee paying reffos doing BS courses to satisfy requirements for a PR scam, absolute joke.

Look at them all squealing about the international travel ban - the golden goose has been banned from the country and they know their BS training courses don't stand up without reffo money propping up their scam.

I don't mind paying for the part of the course that I did, but they incorrectly charged me full fee even after I was long gone from the system, then didn't do anything about it when I contacted them to correct it after pulling emails from years ago - it shouldn't have had to get to the stage of the government intervening on my behalf to get my money back years later.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Holy sh*t,
Well couldn't say I didn't know half of what I've read and would happily add to it but it looks like it's been generically covered.
However I would like to add that due to the recent apparent linking of our wonderful country it took them until the last 10 years to actually give us nationwide qualifications and certifications without the need to join a federal body.
But why is it still based on a RPL system when you actually have a certificate printed from a so-called Government Education Facility but when it's compared to others from elsewhere said competencies are a waste of time.
Just a page from the MadHatter life.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Back in the early 80's TAFE was a great system to learn a trade through.
It was a government / employer automatic guarantee to be placed in and was free.
Seems these days everything that has a price stuck on it doesn't necessarily guarantee quality tradesperson.
Personally if I was looking for co worker I would gauging how they work and not by how many bits of paper they have.
There are so many "qualified" people in industries who have no idea what they are doing now.

It would be great to see a German style of schooling where you are usually groomed to either go into a "necessary" trade or head towards university type careers.
But then again we don't build or make anything here anymore.
TAFE has changed in that it seems more geared toward covering your a**s bits of paper than actually learning trade skills.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

There's more knowledge and skills on AFF amongst weekend warriors and their project cars and our members make better teachers than the bull**** you pay thousands for at TAFE.

You guys could go get Cert IV/Diploma TAE and go teach at automotive TAFE and do a better job while getting 4 smoko breaks and an hour lunch for your 5.5 hour work day babysitting kids and young adults for circa $40-$50+/hour.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Those who can't, teach? Well in today's case those who teach, can't? Just daily ponderings....

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

i went to many tafes in sydney , between 1986 and about 2007.

i did farriery, blacksmithing, boilermaker and welder trade courses. mostly night courses.

because the learning i was able to gain good employment in good paying jobs.

when at tafe, training mostly went pretty good, and teachers were helpful.

during my time at tafe , tafe teachers would complain from time to time about the administration side of things, and in later years there was a clear disdain for the higher up "leaders" running the show.

the welding courses that i attended were pretty average, and that if you needed a teacher with really good skills to help with a welding problem, well good luck with that.
there's an old saying "if you can,t do, teach" . which rang ture in the welding work. as many welders in industry would run rings around my welding teachers.

but , overall it was definitely worth while.

i always recommend young people to go to tafe and learn something.

and i just want to add, those independent trainers taking peoples money and ripping them off , should be thrown in jail.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

As was said before, like much that had promise in Australia it’s been grossly altered to become a cow for milking. I think TAFE’s terminally broken.

PB - I briefly had a welding teacher called Norm Burrell, at Ultimo. He was red hot; thirty years later I regret not paying more attention but at least gained appreciation of what a good weld looks like.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Just a sidenote...Blacksmithing is a great thing to learn, It was part of my apprenticeship as we needed to make and temper our own tools.
In the DPW we had a large circus type tent at the Barracks Building where we could temper cutting points and make flat blade tempered pitching chisels from scratch.
A great experience that I am forever grateful to learn.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Franco, I've learnt more about Detroit diesels from watching 'Bus Grease Monkey" on youtube than I would ever from anywhere else but also agree with AFF being a great resource.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

yes a handy skill. but i expect you would see forged steel gates ect, i your trade?.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Don’t get me going on the quality of skills taught to apprentices at TAFEs compared to the old Victorian Technical Colleges!
I’ve had a good 30 go through the system, and if they didn’t have prior engineering/ mechanical aptitude, as well as competent educators at their place of employment, they’d be toast!
The basics taught in the old tech schools are a thing of the past...
Basics as simple sharpening of a drill bit, lathe cutting angles on tool steel, even friggin filing a key... All disappeared! And replaced with the “bogie” that’s decimated the entire Australian bloody workforce, and sent everything offshore... The mighty OH&S!!!

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

IMO there is nothing nicer looking than an entranceway using forged steel gates and stone walling.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

it looks like the govco or whoever has errored a good working system to what we have now.

but what really pee,s me off , is that developers, industry and govco will winge "there's not enough skills, there's not enough skills ".
in the mean time 457 working visa,s ( overseas cheap labour) get handed out.
i,ve seen it in the metal fabrication industry, a big job comes in , and half the workshop is sectioned off and segregated. and its filled up non-english speaking people from overseas . paid at a low rate.
then when the jobs done, they go somewhere else.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

I've always worked full time and have dedicated a night a week over my whole working life to further my studies. Is that unusual?
As for the RPL's yeah I want it for free, why should I pay to do a course I've already done again? Then waste my time sitting for it? I've furthered that with other recognized qualifications and its certainly not a 'mate' giving me references.
Sorry if the criticisms and I don't seem to be the only one, of the Tafe system bothers you but its reality and handballing it to someone else just doesn't cut it.
To be honest though I'm not surprised, thats what osh seems to be about nowadays.

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

so, are you happy to work for free? Would you do hours and hours of work to not be paid for it? Yet you expect TAFE to work the same - :doh As i said previously with RPL YOU are the one claiming you can meet the requirements of the training package, then it is up to YOU to prove it. We have to spend hours mapping what you claim meets the requirements of the current training package to what the requirements (training package) actually say. If we believed everything every person was claiming about their life's learning without PROOF then we would be issuing qualifications fraudulently - is that OK?

However you quote "RPL' but what I read is 'credit transfer'. Credit transfers are a very different thing to RPL. ALL training providers across Australia are obliged to accept the Nationally accredited qualifications issued by other registered training organisations (RTO's) - it is a legal requirement

As for the fees, back in the day your fees were fully subsidised by Government (read tax payer), well guess what they aren't any more. You were happy for the Government (read tax payer) to fully fund your learning????? but not happy to contribute any of your own money now? Sounds hypocritical to me - pay more tax then, then your enrolment fees will go down - see the lunacy?

Government has cut the **** out funding that TAFE's get for training delivery, so much that they had to start charging an enrolment fee to cover costs. The off-shoot of that is there isn't as much money around to buy / upgrade training equipment

I don't know why you are all shocked by this - it would be the same in your business (or life) if you had your income cut by up to 80%, (in some cases, actually 90%)

Go to training.gov.au and do a search of your qualification, then look at the Units of Competence that make up the qual, then take the time to look at just one Unit of Competency and take particular note of the 'Performance Criteria', the 'knowledge evidence', the performance evidence, etc. You have to meet all that for us to deem you 'competent' and it means you proving it more than once, as it says a 'range of conditions'


Here is one I just picked at random - MEM31319 - Certificate III in Refrigeration and Air Conditioning, you much achieve '96 points' to be awarded that qual - you do the search to see what that means

One of the Units of Competency from that qual is MEM05012 - Perform routine manual metal arc welding - https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/MEM05012. Go your hardest and look at the above listed stuff and see how you go meeting the requirements if you are qualified in that field

You all know so much - go your hardest

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

what a load of rubbish

OHS is a law, many business **** it by interpreting into their businesses - there is the problem, not the law - blame the business not the law. I am happy to debate that subject with you all day long as that is 'my area of expertise'

I have a mate who is a butcher trainer, he spends hours training apprentices on the basics, the mandatory? knife sharpening

What a load of tripe

Did you read anything of what I wrote above?????? There is now a 'legal' requirement for all RTO employed trainers to be 'recent vocationally competent' to train the subjects in. This mean we have to prove annually that we are 'industry current' to be able to train in our area of expertise? Do you have prove your ability to do your job annually to hold your job? We do!

I was a heavy vehicle driver then heavy vehicle driver trainer for years, I haven't driven a truck in industry since 2000? Am I industry current? Of course I am not, can I teach heavy vehicle drivers now - of course not. I can't prove 'recent industry currency'. Can I still drive a truck OK, you bet

Re: Current review of TAFE system.
 

Do I trust the Morrison Government to do this right? - absolutely not

Some of you think TAFE is **** now, just wait until they get their hands on it