US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...20/3222259.htm

FAIL.

$228 Million per aircraft for the first 14 airframes when we could have piggybacked onto the current production run of the F-22 Raptor at a unit cost of US $177 Million!! Perhaps a few more of those Super Hornets wouldn't be a bad idea right now...

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Got me buggered why have to constantly link ourselves to the US when it comes to this stuff.......:conf

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

isnt the f22 being axed ?

DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

What about the Eurofighter? They're roughly 90m euro per unit

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

the F22 hasnt been axed....

as a tax payer what you should be worried about is that the JSF doesnt represent value for money. Especially when the aircraft is not suited to our needs.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

F22 is and/or never was an option...
No matter how good the relationship.... F22 was never! for sale..
The yanks just wouldn't do it!

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

I cant remember the orginal name of the program (I think it was AIR2000), but orginally as far back as 1998 request for tenders were called to meet the RAAFs requirements to orginally just replace the F18. A short list of 4 aircraft was announced in 2000, this included (from memory, id have to look all this up again) the french Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, an upgraded version of the F15 strike eagle and the Ukrainian (russian) SU-30 series of long range fighters. The Ukranians even offered Australia a licence to make them here and set up a factory etc.

The Lockheed Martin F35 WAS NEVER OFFERED to Australia. It never submitted anything.
At the time it wasnt even flying.. it was a "paper" aeroplane. A computer design!
A prototype had not even been built.

Suddenly defence drops the RFT and announces that it has bought into the program (paying a $100Million nonrefundable) as a 3rd teir? partner or some such rubbish.
That money was just to buy into the program, its not a deposit or a commitment to buy.

Defence and the Federal Government all come under the same procurement guidelines. There is federal legislation about large procurement and clearly this whole program did not follow any of the guidelines, unlike the orginal procurement for the F18 (back in the 1980s) as an example in which the F18 and F16 were short listed. The reason the F16 was never chosen was because it was a single engine fighter.

Now suddenly a single engine fighter is acceptable again?
Ask a pilot how safe he feels flying over the ocean in a single engine plane and he will tell you he simply would prefer not to do it.

Several other points come to mind to:
The F35 is noisier then a twin engine F15, so i can see many noise complaints appearing.
The F35 is not a front line fighter, it is for all purposes a CAS (Close Air Support) plane.
Yes it has marvelous technology but its weapons bay it too small to carry a large amount of ordanance.
It will carry just two large bombs (JADM) and 2 short range AIM132 air to air missiles.
This is hardly worthwhile bang for your buck!
But defence will argue... the JSF has 4 wing hard points to carry more payload.
Great... but once you put bombs on the wings the plane is no longer "stealthy" and may as well be just another F18.

The other problem was that in an effort to save money Lockheed Martin has NOT cleared the JSF for external fuel tanks.
This means it will need tanker support... again, you give away your position because you have a large slow fuel tanker flying around along the route to support the "stealthy" plane.

Battle damage repair is also a problem, because of the aircrafts composite materials it will be almost impossible to repair the plane out in the field should it get even minor damage to its skin.
The USAF is having this problem with its stealthy F22 fighter now.

The RAAF is now again facing the possibility of leasing more "stop gap" fighters because the F18 is due for retirement in about 3yrs and the JSF still wont be in service in the USA.
What happens when there is a problem discovered with the aircraft? The whole fleet is grounded.
As with most new products there will be at least a few yrs where issues will crop up and ground these new birds.
What then for the RAAF? No fighter at all if we are to go and replace both the Super hornet and F18 with one aircraft type and suddenly its grounded due to a fault.

As an example... when the F22 fighter flew its first overseas deployment they had to abort the flight and return to the USA.
They were being flown from the USA to JAPAN (2008 i think), when the aircraft reached the international dateline the computers crashed as it didnt know what to do about changing the time/ date! The fleet was grounded and its software rewritten...

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

See below from Wiki

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Why don't we just give the septics a big lump of land up north to stick a USAF base?

If Australia gets attacked we are duck poop without them anyway. There was once a time when every young man in this country was familiar with firearms and many owned them privately along with a stock of ammo and some bush gear.

Now the best we can hope for is to unfriend them on facebook then SMS their commanders with !!!1!!!!!!11!1!! and then finally plank a tank.......

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

The F22 isnt suited either as its a pure defence fighter.
We need a mulitrole aircraft, preferably running two types of aircraft.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

you have never dealt with american military types have you?
or seen them in action in town when on leave?
no way in hell would a yank base be welcomed here.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Yeh you are right. How about a Chinese or Indian or Pakastani or whatever base?

Goose, do you think you are the only person on AFF who has some military interaction in their history?

But as you don't ever want to tell anyone who you are or what you do or have done for a living why should anyone believe anything you say?

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

I am talking as member of the australian public.... and i have no idea what your background is? do you want introductions?

Townsville is full of soldiers.... soon to be much more.
Everytime there is a joint exersize here there are dramas with the behavour of the visiting marines or whoever they are.

Attempted murders, glassing, drugs, cops being king hit from behind, really appalling driving, unwanted pregnancies and the usual punch ups.

Why on earth would you mention Chinese or Paki or Indian?
(Who would want them here here either?)

And why on earth would my background make a difference?
I dont see other people on here telling you who they are or what they do?
Everyone is entittled to an opinion, its a free (supposedly) country.

A particular US base in Japan was closed recenlty... due to what the Americans call "cultural differences".... you work it out.

the discussion is about the JSF.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

No real issue here - if it is delayed much longer and with the $AU murdering the greenback we will pick them up for the same price as a Hyundai Getz with Auto and Air.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

not based on our needs? says who ..? I would imagine the top brass in the military are more than capable of making that judgment call.

as for the euro,...we arent buying cars here. I'd throw my lot in with the US any day of the week.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Sounds like a normal Friday night here in Northbridge.... :yelrotflm

The 35 was/is a white elephant. The 22 regardless if it was 'available' to us or not is not better suited.
Our conditions and requirements are very different to most Air Forces.
Locating a twin engined, large internal tanked, multi-roled, multi payload aircraft may not be as easy as it sounds.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Nah, Goose knows Maverick very well......................

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

My point being, unless we are going head to head with a "foe" already equipped with this technology (who has it ?) it's a pointless expensive exercise for Aus...
There are other of the shelf options available today that are quite adequate for our immediate needs, the bloody thing will probably be obsolete before we ever see one unless it is constantly evolving in which case it will never be finished....

But i suppose we could always email any potential foes to hang on for another 7 years or so as we are not ready for a bit of biffo yet....

The only ones profiting out of this are those doing the lobbying and Lockheed Martin execs....

My 2c worth....

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Why don't we build our own??
Ohh, forgot, Gov Aircraft Factory, Gov Ordnance Factory, Naval Dockyard and Ammos all gone.. Privatised and sold off.
Ok, well maybe use those big, soon to be empty, tumble-weed strewn factories down Geelong and out at Broady then?
In all seriousness though, it's a bloody disgrace... We HAD the expertise, We HAD the technology, We HAD the skilled manpower, We HAD the dedicated factories to produce stuff like this!
And we USED to! In fact, we led the world in some of these areas!
Ikara Missile anyone? Turana Drone?? Even the trusty Bushmaster.
Why don't we just swap a few tonne of coal for 50 Great Wall swing wing fighters or 50 Ssang Yong bombers?

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

What are you on about? We still make Bushmasters and made all (but the first few) F/A-18 Hornets in Australia. And the Tiger attack helicopter we are making here. We made all the ANZAC frigates and Collins Class Submarines here, all of which are undergoing updates right here. In fact, the ANZAC Frigate Warfighting Improvement Project is giving the frigates almost as much firepower as a US Arleigh-Burke Class Destroyer:

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/2011...094997_087.jpg

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Why not just update the F1-11?

Twin engine, awesome piece of machinery...spend the coin on updating, as opposed to bringing in more planes that will get decommissioned and live out their last days turning to rust...

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

....ah but

1. How much did they eventually cost, and how long did it take to get one of them fully operational...?
2. Not enough crews to man them, last i heard they had barely enough to operate half the fleet...!
3. Now the Navy don't want them anymore and want some new ones...!?!?

....but you are right, they were built here....

Sorry for the off topic...:)

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Unfortunately the only chance of that happening is if General Dynamics makes us some more, as the current ones are already being dismantled. Oh and GD don't have an aircraft division anymore!

Also, As far as I am aware, all the F22 tooling has been destroyed.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

From an e-book i have...

....basically there are too many more advanced nasties out there now that could effortlessly swat the beloved F-111 out of the sky.....

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

They eventually cost $1bn each and took years to deliver, but the capability gap is caused by manpower shortages, not the subs. And the Navy has started planning now for new subs in time for when the Collins are at the end of their service lives, which is standard procedure for replacing assets which are subject to such high psychical and operational stresses as submarines. And yes, the replacements will more than likely be built here.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

The F111 has already been retired months ago sezzy.
No longer an option.

er umm.. gees what can one say to a comment like that.
you better do some research into how much money defence blows per annum because the socalled experts are in charge and dont care about tax payers money..

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

The Super Hornet has got longer range than the orginal model Hornet and is not as bad as everyone makes out. Bigger payload, 2seats, 2 engines..

The only other option (and politically would never happen) is the Ukranian SU-30 series of fighters. They were as I stated earlier offered to Australia in the orginal tender process (with western avionics, but id imagine intergration would be an issue).

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

They're still rolling out F22's, they have attrition and spares requirements. Each time the next F35 schedule isn't met, then they reluctantly build a few more F22's.

As far as Australia buying F22's, I recall US Defense Secretary was quoted "no one from Australia has officially approached the USA regarding purchase of the F22, and if Australia did, then we (USA) would consider the request..."

The mission is to fly from Tindall to some place 3000km away, bomb the place and safely return (round trip 6000km), so what options are available?

F18 Super Hornet
Tornado
Eurofighter
Mirage 2000
F15

Lets face it, there aren't that many options available from "friendly" countries.

The F111 was great plane for just such a mission.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Not having a go at you but I am curious as to whether or not you work in emergency services or defence, as I grew up in Townsville and only recently moved to Brisbane this year and I've never heard of anything that bad when the yanks came to town.


I have heard those 'cultural difference' include US marines raping girls as young as 14. Although this is heresay.

Back on topic, the JSF is a bit of a joke some more super hornets and updated F-15s would be a much better choice.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

There is no more funding for any F22s since 2010 financial year.
The US cut its budget to only 187 fighters well under the orginal figure which was over 240.

The final lot of F22s will be delivered this year...

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Isn't that SU30 a fairly decent plane?

Win in my books if they let us build it here, big boost in industry jobs.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Not sure how Uncle Sam would take that tho....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hq_RTaThNI

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

And if we upset uncle sam? who cares?
The Army went Euro with the Tiger attack helicopter and the MRH90 Helicopter.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Surely you are not suggesting we secede from the USA.....:usa

Keep a lookout for black choppers, you have now been flagged.....:wink2

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

I have my tinfoil hat on.... sunnies and full tank of gas...

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Its a moot point anyways, as the Obey Amendment precludes export of the F-22 no matter how close an Ally.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

I wouldn't crow too loudly about that MRH90. So far it has been a bit of a fail. Don't be surprised if they pull the pin like the Sea Sprite.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

yes have heard the gripes about the MRH.. dunno if they will pull the pin though.

At least the MRH is flying about a bit more often nowadays... but yes it seems they made a bad choice there too.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Funny how so many love the F-111 now, but back in the late sixties and seventies there was pretty much the same debate that is now going on with the F-35. F-35 is far more advanced than F-15 or any F-18.

As far as the F-22 is concerned, that is not an option. Finished.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

No one said it wasnt advanced, it is however too expensive, and not really suited as a front line fighter.

The F-111 main problem were because of the wing box failure (no fancy computers then) which cost the company millions to fix, which drove the price up. In the end we got a very good aircraft.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

In June 2008, the entrepreneur Dick Smith offered a $50,000 award for investigative journalism to examine the cancelled contract, on issues of accountability and related Government policies, without result.

:raisedeye

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Not only that, the F35 IS flying, and is struggling to meet some of its performance benchmarks.

Personally I would have liked to have seen Eurofighters instead and kept the Super Hornets for strike. Ruskie stuff wouldn't have ever cut it because our US and NATO ordnance is totally incompatible with them - not to mention their combat systems being totally incompatible with our western-centric digital systems.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Not the first time and wont be the last... there is no accountability despite what the government and defence says when it comes to spending public money.

Why no one went to jail over the seasprite saga is beyond me...
what was the final figure? $700 or $800Million for a bunch of 2nd hand helicopters (some as old as 20yrs) and unable to fire its missiles, let alone hover using its autopilot!

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

While I agree that the JSF is highly inappropriate for our needs, I would hope that our involvement in the program has more to do with strengthening our international alliances rather than making us self reliant (yes I'm being optimistic, deep down I suspect it's really all about kickbacks and palm greasing).
Even though that SU30 does sound like a very nice piece of machinery that could quite capably service some of our needs, if our northern neighbours were to pay us a visit what are we going to do, call on the Ukranians for help?

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

The SU-30 is an evolved SU-27 which is probably comparable to an updated F-15E Strike Eagle - in other words, long in the tooth and obsolete in 10 years. The whole point of a new jet fighter purchase was to equip the RAAF with a true 5th generation fighter that could serve its needs for 20 or more years, with upgrades. Not something that is in its twilight years that will need replacing after 10 or so years thus costing more money. And we know how Defence likes spending money...

If you want to look at Ruskies...then look at the Sukhoi PAK-FA:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_flight.jpg

The US should be very concerned about this aircraft.

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Whats the going rate on a Chinese J 20, surely we could pick up a few of them pretty cheep.....

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Im betting the PAK FA or the J20 will be in service before the JSF reaches aussie shores... :P

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

lolol

http://www.airforce.gov.au/images/wa...re1024X724.jpg

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Oh god... not that picture again... once was enough.
Took me a while to stop laughing

Re: US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable
 

Yep....some of the boys back at HQ have some pretty big ideas....

.....someone needs to check the coffee....:lol

https://i266.photobucket.com/albums/...AV1024X724.jpg